Curse

Clinically Proven · Mar 26, 2007, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Given we have no way to confirm the numbers of folks playing "serious" pvp as well as obvious definition problems the whole thread appears to be an exercise in futility.

Hauki · Mar 27, 2007, 02:31 AM // 02:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clinically Proven

Given we have no way to confirm the numbers of folks playing "serious" pvp as well as obvious definition problems the whole thread appears to be an exercise in futility.

The number of folks playing "serious" PvP is & has been rapidly declining due to lack of support. Apparently WoW really is the game to move to now - companies are starting to sponsor WoW PvP teams.

Riotgear · Mar 27, 2007, 02:41 AM // 02:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hauki

Apparently WoW really is the game to move to now - companies are starting to sponsor WoW PvP teams.

That'll last about as long as it takes for people to realize that it's an imbalanced train-wreck, with way too much CC, no way to stop mindless pain-training unless you can stop it yourself (i.e. immunity shields, ice block, pain suppression), a terrible debuff system which lets too many things get dispelled with spammy Cleanse (which would be like Remove Hex casting in 1/4 sec with a 2-second cooldown).

Oh wait, they already realize that. If people are jumping ship from GW to WoW for better PvP, they will be back in very short order. WoW's PvP was designed as an afterthought, the mechanics are terrible and need a complete overhaul, and it sucks in general.

DreamWind · Mar 27, 2007, 04:22 AM // 04:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

If people are jumping ship from GW to WoW for better PvP, they will be back in very short order. WoW's PvP was designed as an afterthought, the mechanics are terrible and need a complete overhaul, and it sucks in general.

To be honest, I am willing to bet that Blizzard can fix their PvP faster than Anet can at this point. See Blizzard has enough market share that at this point they can practically do whatever they want. Anet on the other hand has to cater to PvE players to survive which takes away from the PvP (even though it is better at the moment even with all its flaws).

Also, why were the numbers brought up again. It was already said that was not the main point of the thread. The point is that PvE players far outnumber PvP players in Anets business decisions. That is all.

tomcruisejr · Mar 27, 2007, 04:22 AM // 04:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Oh wait, they already realize that. If people are jumping ship from GW to WoW for better PvP, they will be back in very short order. WoW's PvP was designed as an afterthought, the mechanics are terrible and need a complete overhaul, and it sucks in general.

Balanced and grind independent PvP and WoW won't ever ever mix unless they rip off Guild Wars.

And 99.9% of people who play WoW play it for the grind, the pve, so there are hardly any PvPers in WoW (for now).

Assumptions of course and the numbers are wild estimates.

Riotgear · Mar 27, 2007, 05:04 AM // 05:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

Balanced and grind independent PvP and WoW won't ever ever mix unless they rip off Guild Wars.

The problem is not the lack of grind, if anything, grinding is less of an issue now than it used to be because high-end gear is much easier to get, and the jump from set to set is much shallower.

The problem is that the game was designed from day one for PvE, without any real thought towards their effect to PvP. The abilities they did add for PvP are mostly situational I Win buttons. In other words, the problem is that the mechanics are completely broken and not even remotely designed for PvP.

If you were to take WoW's broken garbage and translate it to GW, here's what would happen:

- Deep Would no longer causes 20% max health loss, but instead reduces healing by 50%, and is unremovable. Dismember also activates in 1/2 sec. (Mortal Strike)
- Knockdowns all last 4 seconds or longer.
- Hammer Bash and Heavy Blow don't drain your adrenaline. (Rogue stunlocking)
- Lightning Hammer takes 3 seconds to cast, but costs 10 energy and does 175 damage. Did I mention it ignores armor? (Mages)
- ... And yes, you can Glyph of Sacrifice it, which will make it do 250 damage. (PoM+Pyroblast)
- All prot spells are disabled except for Mark of Protection and Life Sheath. (Blessing of Protection and PWS, the only real protective spells in the game)
- Signet of Removal has no enchant conditional, activates in 1/4 sec, recharges in 1 second, and is no longer an elite. (Cleanse)
- Signet of Disenchantment recharges instantly. And it doesn't cause you to lose all energy. (Purge, Dispel Magic)
- Most useful hexes are simply replaced with spells that do the same thing as Conjure Phantasm, but ignore the degen cap, so you can stack -20 degen on someone if you want. That is, assuming it doesn't get removed by the afforementioned uber Signet of Removal. To compensate for this, you are given an elite version that does 200 damage to someone if they remove it, and knocks them down for 5 seconds. No, I am not exaggerating. (Warlocks, Unstable Affliction)
- Apply Poison gains new counterparts, Apply Cripple and Apply 40% Healing Reduction Condition. Both last a minute. And just for good measure, you can use both at the same time. (Rogue poisons)

If anyone thinks WoW is going to become competitive with mechanics like that, they're retarded.

Quote:

To be honest, I am willing to bet that Blizzard can fix their PvP faster than Anet can at this point.

See above. GW's PvP is suffering from minor balance issues, stale mechanics, and a stagnating playerbase. Relatively minor problems, with relatively simple solutions, if they revise their sluggish update schedule.

WoW's PvP is suffering from failures that reach all the way down to the design level. It was a game designed for PvE, with a massive wealth of mechanics that do not translate well into player-vs-player combat. It needs nothing short of a complete rewrite, which they are not going to do because it will affect their core market (PvE) too heavily.

Ensign · Mar 27, 2007, 07:35 AM // 07:35

World of Warcraft's PvP system suffers from core design flaws that keep it from ever being very competitive. It is, however, a very popular game, with a ton of aftermarket support and additions that keep it 'fun' even if its core is a weak, anti-competitive combat system.

Guild Wars, on the other hand, has a very good combat system. Unlike Blizzard, however, Arena.net has done a miserable job promoting and supporting their product.

The business reality is that it doesn't matter if you have a superior product if you're plagued with mismanagement, and fail miserably at promoting and supporting your product. Not when the competition has the brand recognition and is designed to be as addictive as possible.

Peace,
-CxE

Riotgear · Mar 27, 2007, 08:05 AM // 08:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

It is, however, a very popular game, with a ton of aftermarket support and additions that keep it 'fun' even if its core is a weak, anti-competitive combat system.

I was not trying to imply that GW's PvP has been handled well lately, or that it can usurp a game with such a massive installed base. I was simply responding to Hauki's comments that "serious PvPers" were leaving for WoW, which makes absolutely no sense. It's like suggesting that a professional poker player would retire to play 52 Pickup instead.

Eilsys · Mar 27, 2007, 08:07 AM // 08:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

The thing is, in a strong PvP game, the top of the competitive scene will inspire the rest. I've guested for sub-1000 guilds, and in almost every case they've had at least some knowledge of the high-end competition. They know who iQ and QQ are, they know the difference between balanced and gimmick, and they have a general idea of whether the high end community is in a good or bad place.

Like us!

That's a good point though... there are a lot of bad players who like PvP more than PvE (like myself), though I agree with the original poster that PvPers are the minority.

I think HA being somewhat dead and Alliance Battles still going strong shows that casual PvP is in demand, and I think that's why Guild Wars 2 is going for the world-based PvP stuff mentioned in the article.

I'm not happy about Guild Wars 2 though... it sounds like they're giving up on their original vision and making a WoW clone. Friends of mine that play PvE like the changes, but (as someone who really likes GvG) it sounds like the whole idea of skill > build is being dumped for a grind-based game revolving around massive, low-skill PvP, with GvG being a marginalized, seperate affair.

I think the relationship between PvE and PvP has been somewhat botched... although Prophecies mixed the two, the other campaigns have been seperate. I think low-level, introductory PvP needs to be readressed so that PvP isn't quite so intimidating. As Tomcruisejr said, people don't want to get thrashed every time after coming home from work; they want to win at least some of the time.

I know that didn't really adress most of the points, but that's what I think about the topic.

Riotgear · Mar 27, 2007, 08:15 AM // 08:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eilsys

As Tomcruisejr said, people don't want to get thrashed every time after coming home from work; they want to win at least some of the time.

I'd go as far as to say that SP/BOA has severely damaged that. I don't think anything has ever made casual PvP so discouraging, since there is so little that can effectively counter it short of a good monk, and it is EVERYWHERE.

Undressed · Mar 27, 2007, 08:46 AM // 08:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

I'd go as far as to say that SP/BOA has severely damaged that. I don't think anything has ever made casual PvP so discouraging, since there is so little that can effectively counter it short of a good monk, and it is EVERYWHERE.

Plus it doesn't help if people "encourage" others by stating "suck less" or it's easy to counter, which happens a lot. The SP/BoA is the first build which kills any warm welcome to PvP, and people ARE aware they they'll have to die or lose, it's just that a retarded build like this is far from motivating beginners who get killed in like 3 seconds without getting their flare of - and stating that flare sucks or "omg noob uses flare" doesn't help either.

red orc · Mar 27, 2007, 02:54 PM // 14:54

There is no introduction to gvg at all in GW.
Let me describe to you all my first GVG:
We were several ppl from pve forming a guild and started a fight.
We ran out and OMG we were all dead in 5 seconds. We didnt even went out of our GH.
It took me 4 more months to try it again.
Anet should add a tutorial for gvg the same way they create "pre searing" for pve. This is even more important for the human players hit you faster and harder than any monster in the game.
Only after you completed your tutorial will you be able to participate in real pvp.
Then you will have much more pvpers cause ppl will be able to learn the basics. Right now there is a huge jump to make that only a few are able to make.

DreamRunner · Mar 27, 2007, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

If my estimate is completely off in your opinion, don't just say it, give numbers.

To why people are attacking your numbers:
Saying "give numbers" is just an excuse for you to lay back on. People don't actually have to give numbers either. Let me give you some advice. In a argument, or a discussion. You don't really have to be right, it doesn't matter if you are right or not. You just need to prove that the other person is wrong. Now, people are attacking your numbers because they think its wrong, and they are doing quite well.

Ec]-[oMaN · Mar 27, 2007, 03:14 PM // 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by red orc

There is no introduction to gvg at all in GW.
Let me describe to you all my first GVG:
We were several ppl from pve forming a guild and started a fight.
We ran out and OMG we were all dead in 5 seconds. We didnt even went out of our GH.
It took me 4 more months to try it again.
Anet should add a tutorial for gvg the same way they create "pre searing" for pve. This is even more important for the human players hit you faster and harder than any monster in the game.
Only after you completed your tutorial will you be able to participate in real pvp.
Then you will have much more pvpers cause ppl will be able to learn the basics. Right now there is a huge jump to make that only a few are able to make.

""=Then what you say has merit
If you have never been to RA and realized a monk on your team helps ""
If you have never watched some obs mode ""
If you have never played in HA ""
If you have never alliance battled ""
If you are mentally challenged ""
If you have never TA'd ""

Quote:

Originally Posted by red orc

It took me 4 more months to try it again.

Obviously you weren't interested in GVG enough to go at it again and learn...

Quote:

Originally Posted by red orc

Only after you completed your tutorial will you be able to participate in real pvp. Right now there is a huge jump to make that only a few are able to make.

The tutorial is listed above, try those things first.
If anything right now the "jump" is soo tiny compared to when GW was first released it isn't even funny.

red orc · Mar 27, 2007, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

""=Then what you say has merit
If you have never been to RA and realized a monk on your team helps ""
--> No, coming from pve, i did not event try ra once before my first gvg
If you have never watched some obs mode ""
--> Needless to I didnt know there is an observe mode ( i think there was no observe mode back then)
If you have never played in HA ""
--> At the time I would say "what is HA ?"
If you have never alliance battled ""
--> There was no AB then
If you are mentally challenged ""
--> I dont think I am, but you are much smarter
If you have never TA'd ""
--> see above

Obviously you weren't interested in GVG enough to go at it again and learn...

--> You have such good observations. GVG is the only reason I play GW for more than a year.

The tutorial is listed above, try those things first.
--> and I suppose someone how buy the game get a reference to your post here.
If anything right now the "jump" is soo tiny compared to when GW was first released it isn't even funny.

--> sure, having 15 GH is much simpler than having 5. Having 8 types of players is easyer than 4 and 4 times as much skills is simpler to handle.
Also BOA sins kill much slower than Dev hammer (to a new comer), SF ele does slower damage than flare ele, Burnnig arow ranger does less damage than a trapper. So anyone who enters gvg now last longer than he lasted when the game was released...

Relambrien · Mar 27, 2007, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Personally, I think that if PvP continues to get shafted the way it has, the game to look to will be Fury, upcoming from Auran. In numerous previews its concepts have been compared to those of Guild Wars (skill over grind, etc.), and the game is 100% PvP.

I know I'm going to be playing it if it's as good as Auran claims it will be.

JoeKnowMo · Mar 28, 2007, 12:38 AM // 00:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

If anything right now the "jump" is soo tiny compared to when GW was first released it isn't even funny.

I'm not sure how the addition of about 650 new skills (some are dupes, but still...) and 4 new professions makes the jump smaller than it used to be.

Also, when others having been playing the game competitively for about 2 years and therefore improving in skill level during that time, the gap has actually widened.

I think the guys below say it better:

Quote:

Originally Posted by krakenstar

However, the biggest hurdle, one which they probably will never overcome is the knowledge gap and learning curve required to actually do PvP properly in Guild Wars after 3 releases. Compared to FPS and RTS, the learning curve required is much *much* bigger.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

It's the same on a player skill level. Back in 'the day', you could throw weak spike teams into a panic with basic splits and collapses, allowing you to triumph in the face of a build advantage. Now, even the bad gimmick teams have a basic idea of what to send back and when, and everyone is familiar with split maps and builds. This makes outplaying a team much more difficult.

As players on both sides get better, build or map advantage means a lot more, and it eventually becomes overpowering. There are still a few teams capable of consistently outplaying Jade Isle gimmicks, but eventually the community will improve to the point where even the top teams can't do it.

It's much more difficult to balance a PvP game when your players know what they're doing. Every mistake Izzy makes if magnified tenfold, because the people who play his game are so much better at it than he is. The same number of employees are working to balance PvP, but the community breaks the game much faster and more effectively than it used too.

I like this one too:

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

And think about this. If Guild Wars is basically "funded" by PvE players, why the 100k$ tourneys? They should've allocated 1/2 or 3/4 of that prize money and improve PvE and implement quality in-game measures to make PVP fun and enjoyable for casual players/pvers.

DreamWind · Mar 28, 2007, 02:19 AM // 02:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamRunner

To why people are attacking your numbers:
Saying "give numbers" is just an excuse for you to lay back on. People don't actually have to give numbers either. Let me give you some advice. In a argument, or a discussion. You don't really have to be right, it doesn't matter if you are right or not. You just need to prove that the other person is wrong. Now, people are attacking your numbers because they think its wrong, and they are doing quite well.

I can't believe the numbers were brought up again. The point was not the EXACT NUMBERS, but to give a ballpark figure of the ratio between PvE and PvP players. PvE players FAR OUTNUMBER PvP players and thats all that matters for the purposes of this thread. Everybody arguing the numbers loses and I win. End.

Ec]-[oMaN · Mar 28, 2007, 03:03 AM // 03:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

I'm not sure how the addition of about 650 new skills (some are dupes, but still...) and 4 new professions makes the jump smaller than it used to be.

Also, when others having been playing the game competitively for about 2 years and therefore improving in skill level during that time, the gap has actually widened.

With the additions of;
observer mode
option to buy the pvp edition
increased faction in RA,GVG,
alliance battles+faction gain through that
makes things much easier than they were upon release. I never said that the difference from top tier players to bottom is far greater. The JUMP into PVP is much easier now than before.

Thom · Mar 28, 2007, 05:28 AM // 05:28

GW1 PvP was destined to fail because each expansion raised the barrier of entry significantly. Semi-casual, semi-competitive players like myself, who have been around forever, but have real work time pressures, have a hard time learning 300 new skills every six months. To play competitively, I need to be able to recognize every skill in the game by sight and name. I may be busy for a week or two and it will take me another week to learn the meta at the rate it changes after a rebalance.

An expansion every 6 months means 3 months of a developing/incomplete metagame. A major rebalance means 1-2 weeks of major metagame shift. Natural movement (action and reaction) in the metagame is great, but if the game spends months on end in flux due to skill changes something is wrong. Lack of continuity is a major problem which makes the game difficult... twice the balance was really interesting and skill based right before the next expansion was released.

I honestly feel that an end of major skill/class increases is a boon to PvP. GW2 is addressing some of the "skill overload" felt by GW players and I feel that interesting/balanced PvP will remain important for gameplay. The idea of having fewer, but more complicated skills makes the game better. The most important heal in the game was Reversal of Fortune, not Orison of Healing... the more nuanced skill was more powerful (one example). I'm a fan boy, but I'm really optimistic about GW2.